Julie Legg speaks with therapist Jennifer Noll Sparks, creator of the Create the Win System — a practical, science-informed approach designed to help people move through overwhelm and take meaningful action, even on the hardest days.
Drawing from both her professional background and lived experience, Jennifer unpacks why so many ADHDers feel stuck… not from laziness, but from nervous system dysregulation. She introduces the concept of the window of tolerance, explaining how overwhelm can show up as either high activation (anxiety, urgency) or shutdown (paralysis, procrastination).
Through simple, playful tools like gamification, “widening the win,” and micro-movements, Jennifer offers an alternative to willpower-based productivity.
KEY POINTS FROM THE EPISODE:
- Overwhelm as a universal (non-clinical) human experience
- ADHD, focus struggles, and early school challenges
- Why willpower-based advice often fails
- The window of tolerance and nervous system states
- Activated overwhelm vs shutdown (freeze)
- Why procrastination is often nervous system paralysis
- Gamification as a dopamine-based motivation tool
- “Widening the win” to reduce pressure and build momentum
- Micro-actions to break inertia (even moving a limb)
- Creating momentum through small, achievable wins
- Moving from autopilot to intentional living
- Rebuilding agency and self-trust through action
LINKS:
- WEBSITE: www.createthewin.com
- INSTAGRAM: createthewinco
- LINKEDIN: jennifer-noll-sparks-lcsw
- DEEP DIVE INTO STRATEGY: Create the Win – Start Small, Give Yourself More Time & Have Fun
- JULIE LEGG: The Missing Piece: A Woman’s Guide to Understanding, Diagnosing and Living with ADHD
- INSTAGRAM: ADHDifference Podcast
- YOUTUBE: ADHDifference
- CONTACT: ADHDifference
TRANSCRIPT
JENNIFER: So we have what we call like this window of tolerance and that’s the space where we can actually function and think clearly and do what we need to do, right? But what happens is when we fall outside of the window of tolerance is when we kind of end up becoming what I would call like an activated form of overwhelm or maybe like a shutdown form of overwhelm. So that’s more of like your flight, fight is the, you know, on the top part of that. And then we got the frozen freeze kind of mode down underneath.
JULIE: Welcome to Season 2 of ADHDifference. I’m your host Julie Legg, ADHD advocate, author of The Missing Piece (a woman’s guide to understanding, diagnosing, and living with ADHD), and an unapologetic doer of many things. This season, we’re turning up the volume with a global lineup of brilliant guests bringing their lived experiences, insights, research, strategies, and resources. And of course, along with a healthy dose of humour and humility. Whether you’re neurodivergent yourself or just curious, there’s something here for every curious brain. Let’s dive in. I’m joined by Jennifer Noll Sparks, a licensed therapist who developed the Create the Win System, a science-backed approach designed to help people move through overwhelm and start taking action again. Drawing from behavioural science and her own lived experience with chronic overwhelm, she shares simple practical tools that help people self-regulate, get unstuck, and begin building momentum, one small win at a time. We’re talking about why you can’t get off the couch and a simple tool that can help you start moving again. This is a conversation about nervous systems, paralysis, procrastination, and how to create small meaningful wins, especially on the days when everything feels heavy. Welcome to the show, Jennifer. [A thanks for having me, Julie.] Your work grew out of personal experience. Can you take us back, please, to when you first started noticing how you struggled to focus or comprehend in school and how those challenges eventually led to poor performance and avoidance and what you discovered traditional advice was getting wrong for you?
JENNIFER: Yeah, absolutely. So, it started really early. I mean, as early as first grade. I remember in kind remember in kindergarten, I really enjoyed kindergarten. It was so fun. I got on the bus. I’m smiling and everything’s good. And then first grade came and we got our first book. And I remember being so excited to see this book. And the next thing you know, I’m like, “Yes.” And I tried really hard. But before I knew I knew it, I started to struggle with reading. I wasn’t able to focus enough to capture what the sentence was saying. And honestly, from there on out, I had challenges. And I mean obviously if I can’t comprehend reading you know and I can’t focus then I wasn’t doing well in school and that led to a lot of stress. And I struggled academically and I felt bad about myself and you know all that stuff that happens. So what happened was you know, over time I just didn’t do well in school and even I’ll give you an example. In like fifth grade I had a teacher who decided that they were going to put our seats in order of from who had the best grades to the worst grades. So in fifth, so the back row was like everyone with the A’s and you know all the good grades and everyone in the front row was like the people who were struggling and I definitely was toward the front. And honestly with that pressure and that stress I mean number one, I couldn’t focus to begin with let alone this pressure of everyone knowing that you’re struggling that it just didn’t, it just made me want to avoid school. I mean it. I look back and it was like the worst time honestly of my life thinking oh fifth and sixth grade it’s horrible. So basically, and then my parents got me this VHS program, of like these tapes of like it was called Where There’s a Will, there’s an A. And, I remember thinking, oh my gosh, like I’m such a loser for you to get these like video tapes. And I did not watch them all the way through, but I remembered a couple little tools like, oh, where you know, use one, you use one pencil for studying and the same pencil use for your test and all these little study strategies. But I think the point and to answer your question is like even the name of that program in itself was that traditional advice. It was if you have the willpower, you know, then you can do it. You can get there. I did have the willpower. I tried really hard, but there were things getting in my way. I was never diagnosed. I never was tested for ADHD or diagnosed, but I certainly have a lot of traits. There is no question. And ultimately I built this system to help myself and other people when we have trouble focusing and all that good stuff.
JULIE: So you spoke about even you know first grade reading and really struggling to focus and of course your learning will be affected by that. So yeah definitely. Definitely I still struggle to read a book today to be honest to focus that long, just to focus that long just rereading pages and… Totally. Yeah, it’s quite exhausting rereading paragraphs after paragraphs again.
JENNIFER: Just recently bought a book. I went to the bookstore and because I every time I look I see a book I’m like I wish I could read that but I just can’t get the traction. So I’ve been getting books for with short stories and then people look at me like short stories and so that. I’m like can I just get through this story and that’s my goal is just to like make it smaller and I’m like “Oh I got to read a story even though it was like 10 pages” is better than, you know, not reading a 300 page book. So, so I’m just kind of trying to find a way, you know, that works for me.
JULIE: That sounds great. Great idea. And, yeah, small chapters, too. You’re a licensed therapist. Your work centers around the idea of overwhelm, which isn’t a clinical term. Why focus on that word instead of a clinical label?
JENNIFER: Yeah. Yeah. So I’ll to explain that you know I’ve been a social worker for just about 20 years or a little bit over and I’ve worked in different sectors a lot of the beginning of my career was in hospice and palliative care and then more recently like seven years ago I jumped into mental health. And I’ve been kind of exclusively in mental health but no matter like what I found was no matter the age of the person or what life circumstances that they were going through the truth is like this word kept showing up across these 20 years. And it was the word overwhelm, you know. And no, it’s not a clinical term, right? But what I’m finding is it it’s something and I think that’s a good thing honestly. It’s not pathologizing and people know what that means and people can grab that, you know, and I think it just helps unite us honestly that it’s just part of our human condition. So, you know, I’ve kind of from there, you know, I’ve always wanted to develop, you know, working. I’ve always worked one-on-one with people, you know, but then I thought to myself, like, why am I just doing one-on-one? Why couldn’t I try to help more people? You know, I was always had this itch to like try to make more of a difference or something like that. And so, what I found was like I decided that was going to be my common denominator. If that’s what was getting people stuck was the overwhelm, how could I target that? And so over time I’ve been grabbing data and saying what helps people get unstuck. And so that ultimately what became my Create the Win system.
JULIE: But you’ve also spoken about a defining moment the ropes course story when you first realized this work was actually bigger than you. Can you share kind of what happened there?
JENNIFER: Absolutely. Sure. So this was about three years ago. And we went to… I have kids. They’re like in their teenage years, early teens. And we went to at the zoo and they have this ropes course there. It’s like three stories high and you get in a harness and you’re kind of like a trapeze person and walking across ropes and that is something I do not do. Like I’ll take pictures. I do not need to do that. I will stand on the ground and watch you. But like, so my kids were like, “Mom, will you go?” And I was like, “No.” And I’m like, “No, you know what? I was testing a tool of like how to regulate.” And I was like, “You know what? Let’s put your tools to the test. Let’s go, girl. Like, so I put the harness on. I was like, you’re going to take this one moment at a time. And so I did it and I was like, this was it was really fun. Number one, I didn’t fall. And I had a really fun time. Like, it was awesome. But that wasn’t really what led me to, you know, what I’m going to talk about. So, basically, so I’m up there and I enter this platform area and then I see a couple people in front of me. I could see the person. And it was a girl, maybe 14, 15. And she’s standing at the rope. She’s standing and she’s frozen. And she couldn’t move. And we’re all standing there and her friends are like, “You got this. Like, you got it. Just go.” And she frozen, you know? And so I was like, “Oh my gosh. Should I try to help this girl?” I’m like, “Excuse me.” I’m like, “Would you like some help?” And I was like, “Let’s just try to help her, you know?” So I led her through the tool. I said, “Just all you have to do is this. I will do it with you. Like we’re going to, we’re going to focus on this and that,” and she was able to step out and cross the rope to the other side. And I was like that was awesome, you know. And then later I lost track of her because I needed to focus on myself to make sure I can get down off of this thing. But when I was down with my family ready to leave, I got a tap on my shoulder and I turned around and she smiled and she was like, “Thank you.” And so at that moment it was kind of like I just it was a chilling type of moment where I’m like I have to help other people. Why would I just keep that to myself like there’s you know, so it all kind of blended together to say you know I just need to bring this forward. You know, so that’s yeah that’s what happened.
JULIE: And we do from time to time especially in that freeze moment, we to have help to show us to the next stage to the next baby step, to get us out of that frozen position. And I can, you know, it really does relate to life in many, many situations. So you’ve developed the create the win system using tools that are simple and playful and grounded in behavioural science. So tell me, how does gamification help people build momentum instead of relying on willpower as we spoke about earlier?
JENNIFER: Yeah. Yeah. So, well, from a kind of like a personal philosophical standpoint, I’m one of these people that’s like, if we have to be on this planet, like why wouldn’t we try to have a little fun, you know? So, that’s kind of where it first started. But beyond that, honestly, from a science standpoint, gamification is really powerful. You know, it works to be able to first of all, the brain likes to it likes clear targets and it likes to win. So, we have to be able to turn things into a game, right? And when we when we win games, we get these little dopamine responses, right? That basically increases our motivation and momentum. So just a just a simple example like going to the grocery store. I don’t know about you, do you like to go to the grocery store? Do you I mean maybe you do, but are there times when you don’t want to go?
JULIE: Yeah, I like supermarket shopping, but I don’t necessarily like the checkout at the end. So yeah.
JENNIFER: Yeah. Yeah. So some of these things we might not want to do and I call them kind of like uggh moments like uggh I don’t want to do that you know but what we can do is like if we turn it these things that we do into games. Then we’re able to kind of see like for instance at the at the grocery store like how quickly can you like you know get checked out you know and basically what I do is I help people learn how to create conditions to win by working with time you kind of play with time and by doing that. Number one, you like I said, you’re creating conditions to win, which feels really motivating and you’re like, “Woo! Yeah, yes, I did.” You know, I have my kids like we’re all running back to the car. We’re like, “Yes, we beat the target.” It’s so dumb, but like it just it kind of works. I’m just saying with kids, it totally works. But not only that, the cool thing about gamification is if you are… listen, we can only focus really truly on one thing at a time. Like if I gave you two math problems right now and I was like, Julie, you know, here’s two algebra problems. When did you figure them out? Would you be able to do them at the same time? No. Right. So, we only have so much focus. So, so the trick is if you take your… if you realize that you’re kind of like, oh, I’m all like scattered and like, you know, thinking negative things about how the thing I don’t want to do. You’re you take your power back. You take your attention back. You’re saying, I’m actually going to focus over on the game. And when you focus on the game, it kind of sucks the oxygen out of the chatter that was really leading to the suffering and the like uggh, you know, I don’t want to do. And then when you’re playing the game, you have a chance to win. And then when you when you win, you’re like, “Yeah, I did.” Like, “Yes, I did.” And I do this all day long, like getting into bed. I’m like, “I win.” So, it’s so it’s so dumb, but it’s fun. I say that all the time, you know? It just like I said, it just helps me get through my life, honestly. Yes. And why not have fun along the way?
JULIE: For sure. For sure. You explain overwhelm through the window of tolerance and your river metaphor. So, I’d like to know more. Can you walk us through that? What does it mean? How can someone recognize whether they’re in the rapids or frozen on the river banks?
JENNIFER: Absolutely. Sure. So, I don’t know. you know, it’s like every time I turn around, I see these emails or you know, things online about nervous system regulation. So, it’s kind of cool that, you know, that’s a very hot thing right now. I don’t know if you’ve come across that or not, but so there’s this concept of the window of tolerance. And so, and I’ll explain it really quick. It’s a concept that I think was developed by Dan Siegel. I think he was doing some trauma research. And it’s basically a mapping of how our nervous system responds to stress. So we have what we call like this window of tolerance and that’s the space where we can actually function and think clearly and a do what we need to do right but what happens is when we fall outside of the window of tolerance is when we kind of end up becoming what I would call like an activated form of overwhelm or maybe like a shutdown form of overwhelm. So that’s more of like your flight fight is the you know on the top part of that and then we got the frozen freeze kind of mode down underneath. So in terms of the river metaphor, the way I like to explain it is if you think about that window of tolerance, that’s kind of like the flow of the river, right? We want to get into the flow, right? Because that’s where we get our things done and we live our life and do, you know, we do and have fun and all the things. When we are in that more activated, you know, space, that hyper-arousal, that I call that the rapids. If you think like you’re on a kayak and you’re like, “Oh my gosh, I’m going to capsize.” Ah, so that’s would be examples of that might be like if you’re feeling tense, anxious, you know, you’re having racing thoughts, right? That you’re irritable, right? It’s that that hyper arousal state. So that’s what I call the rapids. And my clients will report back, they’re like, I like that because I can visualize myself. They’ll come back like, I was in the rapids at the mall, you know. So it’s really pretty powerful how, you know, people like to visualize this stuff. So the other side of the of the window of tolerance is what I call the riverbank. It’s essentially like that hypo-arousal. It’s like you’re not even in the water. You know, you’re standing watching the river go by. You’re like on the couch like, “Nope, not today.” You know, I want to do this thing, but I can’t. Like, you know how many times I hear people say, “I’m good once I get started, but it’s the starting that’s the problem.” So, that’s that side, that hypo-arousal side. Had be like when you’re kind of numb and checked out and just and just maybe lethargic, you know, that that other side of our nervous system. So, that’s kind of the mapping in terms of the river metaphor.
JULIE: Thank you for explaining that. And you’re right to be able to visualize you’re in the rapids going “This dingy is out of control. I’ve lost my oars.”
JENNIFER: Yeah, that’s right. I had a client yesterday. She goes, “I was under the kayak.” I’m like, “That’s awesome.” Like, “We’re going to get back in the kayak and we’re going to find our way.” So yeah, so it’s really I really do find that these visualizations really can help people kind of because it gives them a sense of control back to say like where am I, you know, like and how and we need to know where we are so we can figure out where we want to go. Like it all it all, you know, comes together that way, you know, that we need to figure out what’s going on. So it’s a lot of what my work is helping people identify what that what that is, where are they, you know, internally speaking.
JULIE: Wonderful. Many listeners, especially those with ADHD, describe feeling glued to the couch, wanting to move but not being able to. What’s actually happening in the nervous system when that paralysis starts setting in?
JENNIFER: Yeah. So I mean I think if from that from that discussion we were just talking about that would be very much a riverbank experience, right? It’s that essentially what’s happening is there’s some form of like paralysis happening. It’s not that the person is lazy. I mean I don’t know how many times this happens to me or you but like you’re on the couch and like for example you know I don’t know if this happens to you but like when you’re… you want to go to bed at night, right? I’m like, “Oh my gosh, I want to be in bed. I so want to be there because it’s a great place and I want to sleep a great night, but I’m stuck on the couch and I can’t get motivation to get up and go.” It’s because for some reason that ask was too big. You know, it was too much. It was like, “Nope, not today. We’re not doing that.” But then you end up staying stuck on the couch. So, what I find is that I I have some tools that what we want to do is learn how to almost like negotiate with your brain. So, if you ask the question, you’re like, “Can I get off the couch?” And he’s like, “Nope.” And I’ll be like, “Well, can I” and I’ll be like, “Can I move a limb in the next 10 seconds?” And I could create a little game. I’m like 10, nine. And I’m like, “I can move a limb. Can I sit up in the next 10?” It’s playful. Again, these little games, but you’re creating games for the brain to want to hit. And then suddenly you’re kind of like, I’m on my feet. So, that’s one tool. I call that the go tool. And it’s just like I said, it helps you start to roll the ball when you are like stopped. So that’s what I call the go tool to help you get, you know, that inertia to start going.
JULIE: So for someone listening right now who feels stuck in procrastination or task avoidance, we know what that means. Yes, it’s fun. We love it. Can you share a quick tool from your system that they could try?
JENNIFER: Yeah, absolutely. And so maybe I’ll use if I can use that example maybe. So what you do is what you want to do is you want to figure out what task you want to do right so for instance in that task you want to say “Well I want to go to bed.” So you figure out how much time it would take to normally go to bed if you don’t get side-tracked. Okay that’s the first problem is getting side-tracked but if you say if I just stayed on track how long would that take? So let’s just pretend it takes five minutes. Can we just pretend? Right? So 5 minutes. What we do, the trick here is to widen the target to 10 minutes. When we widen that target and then we set a timer, okay, you’ve created the condition conditions for a game. You’re kind of like as soon as you say, hey, I’m not going to say the word because if I say the word, it’s going to set off timers across the universe. But you know, hey, somebody set the timer for, you know, 10 minutes. That when you do that, your brain hears go. And by because you’ve widened the target that reduces that cognitive pressure because you start to go and suddenly I find myself instead of being like I don’t want to go. I’ll be like I’m optimizing how to turn off the lights as fast as possible and shut the door and before you know it I’m in bed and then I forget that the alarm you know the timer was even you know set and then I’m like laying there for 5 minutes and then it goes off. I’m like I win, you know. So it basically, you know, you end up, you know, winning because you’ve created the conditions to win. And so I’ll give you another example, too, really quick, just because that one usually you’re just going to sleep. But I, but if I can just give a real quick example for when you’re doing a task, like let’s say the dishes. Let’s pretend you’re like, I don’t want to do the dishes. No, I just had a client last week. She’s like, I’m having problems. I can’t get going. And so I told her the technique, and it’s really simple, honestly. It’s like widen the time and set the timer. And so she came back, she was like it was amazing. So she set the timer for 10 minutes and the task, you know, normally would take five. She would finish the task, let’s say, in 6 minutes. So what were the wins here? Number one, she finished the task to begin with because she’s all over the place, but number two, she just won four minutes. Like that is highly motivating. And she said, “Then I found myself like washing the sink out.” She’s like, “I never do that.” and she’s cleaning the sink and then she’s like, “Then I threw out the sponge and I put the new sponge on my grocery list.” She’s like, “That’s amazing.” Because it was it just created that momentum, that win, you know? So that’s the I call that the widen and win tool. But it really I all day long like for cleaning the litter, anything you don’t want to do. I would love to hear from you, you know, your listeners if you ever try it. Like I love hearing what people have to, you know, see if it worked for them.
JULIE: So what you’re doing is you’re giving yourself more time to initiate and complete the task than you would generally expect yourself to do it. Yeah. Because if you set a timer for five minutes for a five minute task, what does that feel? I see what you mean.
JENNIFER: Tension you’re creating. It’s like threading a needle. Why are we threading needles? I have that in the book that I’m going to be, you know, it’s going to be out pretty soon. But why are we threading needles? Why don’t we kind of widen the loop? Like why am I driving into the soccer, you know, parking lot like one minute before? I’m like, I win. I’m like, that didn’t feel good. Like, why don’t we widen it? And then you’re kind of like, ah, like I said, it reduces this cognitive pressure and you’re kind of like, oh, sweet. I can do that. And then suddenly you win. You’re like, oh, cool. Like, I just won five minutes or whatever. So, does that make, does that make sense?
JULIE: Yeah. It does make sense and I think otherwise you’re right with a five minute timer it goes off and you haven’t quite finished. So yes again I was slow and I got distracted but yeah it should be a win. Yeah. Very good, very good. I like that your background is in hospice and palliative care and that really deeply shaped your perspective. So, how does focusing on values help people move from say this autopilot living into something a little bit more intentional or meaningful?
JENNIFER: I struggle with autopilot just like everybody else, right? But I think what I found in hospice work is when you meet people, when they don’t have much time left, it really changes the perspective of how you see your life and around you. And so I think that and that was the first job I had coming out of grad school. I remember like I answered an ad in the newspaper because I was like I need a job. And as soon as like and I was like oh hospice I’m like oh gosh I don’t know if I’m going to be able to do this. Like so I got the job and then I ended up falling in love with it. But like the point is that it really helped for me identify like how can we get back into the moment because that’s all we really have if we are alive. How can we get back in the moment and learn how to tune in and check against what matters to us? You know, because that at the end of the day is a life that can become very rich. If we’re just going through autopilot and doing task and task and task, I don’t think that’s the things we’re going to be thinking about when we’re on our deathbed. It’s not going to happen. We’re going to be reflecting on like what did we do, you know, did we make a difference in the world or whatever, you know? So I think that is a a big part of my system is tuning into that on what I have this internal dashboard that I help people like check themselves against and that is one of the variables is what matters to you know are maybe that would guide your next movement you know if you’re stuck in overwhelm like maybe that would change your choice that you make in the moment in moving in a different direction so that that’s really kind of guided my life and the work that I’ve done that it has and it’s so easy to be on autopilot, isn’t it?
JULIE: The things that we need to do, the demanding nature of the environment or our personal environment to just robotically chew through life without stopping and actually appreciating that it’s a short one in the scheme of the world. Just it’s a short one. For listeners who feel chronically stuck, let’s face it, exhausted or ashamed of how hard it feels just to get started, what would you most want them to understand about overwhelm and what’s possible for them?
JENNIFER: Yeah. Well, I’m here to normalize it. You know, it’s something we all struggle with every day in little micro moments to bigger ones. You know, that’s the way I like to try to think of overwhelm is like even if I pull out into you know, into traffic and I pull into the middle lane and I’m like, you know, and you’re like hoping you don’t get, you know, hit by a car, you know, whatever. That that’s an example of like a little moment of overwhelm, but then there’s these other moments of a bigger over overwhelm, right? Like, oh, you find out you owe five times more taxes than you thought you would. You know, you’re like, oh gosh. So, but the point is that it’s going to happen. It’s called life. But I think the point is for us to realize that the sooner that we can learn how to tune in and identify what’s going on like I was just saying in this internal dashboard thing that I that I’m helping people with or whether it’s my system or another anything else people are using out there but to tune into it because as soon as you’re able to see it then you’re able to have a chance to change it. You know, otherwise you’re just kind of reactive to the overwhelm and you’re like, I guess I’m just going to wait for this to pass by. But truly, we can find a way to move through the overwhelm. Like, I see it every single day in my own life and in my clients and my family. And it’s like, oh my gosh, like you feel like you get a sense of control back. So, I’m all about finding ways for people to learn how to get their agency back, to get choice back, even if it’s in a micro moment to say, you know, can I just put my finger on my pen right now so I don’t freeze here for the next 10 minutes and scroll on the internet? Like, I have to keep going, you know? So, basically, I’m just… my point is that like that we can move through this. you know, it’s something that’s not going to go away, but how can we how can we move through and how can we get the ball rolling into our life, you know, no matter how we, you know, wherever we want to go.
JULIE: Thank you so much. And yes, we at times in our lives, we certainly need some assistance and I think creating the win and widening the win, I think they’re really such good points. Jennifer, I’m going to have your links in the show notes so listeners are able to track you down and see what you’re up to and… Sounds good. Yeah. I’d love to know, you said you were writing a book. Whereabouts are you in the process in that?
JENNIFER: Yeah. So, I’m just finishing up the copy editing. So it’s, you know, it’s basically done. It’s just, you know, the fine, you know, the fine pieces to it. I never thought I would ever write a book, but here I am, you know, and so here it’s coming. So, and honestly, through the entire this entire system building and writing the book, I’ve felt overwhelmed every step of the way. And even in this podcast, in this moment, I’m like, I didn’t think I’d be on a podcast. But my point is like I’m using my tools in this moment with just to be able to get through these, you know, challenging moments. So, like I said, the book will be out in the next few months and I’ll have all these types of strategies in the whole system in the book and stuff. And I’m also doing group coaching that’s starting up, you know, and I also do one-on-one coaching and I still have a private practice as well.
JULIE: Wonderful. You’re a very, very busy lady, Jennifer. Got a lot going on over here. Yeah, on that note, I want to say thank you so much for taking up your time today to come and chat. Thank you. Really appreciate it. And yeah, very, very interesting. Watch this space.
JENNIFER: Thank you very much. Awesome. Thanks, Julie. Take care.