E40 - Careers, Stress & Burnout + guest Dr Jaime Raygoza

Julie Legg chats with Dr Jaime Raygoza, founder of Rainbow Career Coaching (California, USA), to explore the challenges and opportunities faced by ADHDers in the workplace and beyond. Diagnosed as an adult, Jaime opens up about his journey of self-discovery, offering valuable insights into managing stress, preventing burnout, and embracing one’s authentic self.

Together, they discuss strategies to thrive in professional settings, the power of reframing ADHD traits as unique strengths, finding balance through self-care, and the surprising mental health benefits of practices like laughter yoga. It’s a candid, practical conversation designed to inspire and empower ADHDers at every stage of their careers.

KEY TAKEAWAYS

Barriers to Career Progression: ADHD traits like procrastination, impulsivity, and hyperfocus can impact performance. Negative self-perceptions and societal expectations can undermine confidence.
Being Authentic: Jaime highlights the importance of understanding your brain’s wiring and leveraging ADHD traits like creativity and adaptability as strengths. Masking or suppressing one’s authentic self, often to conform, can increase anxiety and reduce productivity.
Stress and Burnout Management: ADHDers can thrive in high-pressure situations due to the surge of dopamine but are also prone to burnout from overwork and sensory overload. demands or lack of control in tasks can trigger emotional shutdown or overwhelm. Strategies like structured breaks, managing workload, and prioritizing self-care are critical. Excessive
Laughter Yoga as Stress Relief: This practice combines intentional laughter with breathing exercises to lower cortisol levels, and increase dopamine, improving mood and focus.
Overcoming Challenges: Body-doubling, maintaining accountability, setting boundaries and building tailored strategies for focus and time management are beneficial, along with work-life balance.

LINKS

TRANSCRIPT

JULIE: I’m Julie Legg, author of The Missing Piece and diagnosed with ADHD at 52. Welcome to ADHDifference. In this episode I chat with Dr Jaime Raygoza. Now he is the founder of Rainbow Career Coaching and we talk about time management, stress management, burnout, thriving with ADHD in the workplace and also touch on laughter yoga. Jamie was diagnosed as an adult and he shares his personal journey and experiences too. Well, it’s so lovely to have you join us today. Nice to meet you, Jamie.

JAIME: Yeah, nice to meet you too. Thank you for having me on.

JULIE: Oh, most welcome. We’ve got lots to chat about today but I guess centered around … let’s start with the ADHD and I understand your diagnosis was relatively recently?

JAIME: Yeah it actually … I was diagnosed at 30 so it was in 20, like late of 2022, and it was in the midst of like the pandemic so still trying to find out like things that I noticed that were really hard for me but wasn’t hard for my peers. And I sought therapy and I asked myself like “Hey, like what’s wrong with me? Why am I having these difficulties? My peers are not struggling as much. I feel like my work performance is going down.” It was just very impactful especially with the whole isolation and everything that went through. And my therapist was like “Yeah, this is not normal. Let’s try to see if we can maybe do some screeners and see what we can do.” And one thing led to another and after doing like several different processes we … I got the diagnosis at the end. And it took like about … because I … we started a conversation in 2020. So I didn’t get the diagnosis until like a year and a half later.

JULIE: Wow. Wow. And you were saying you were struggling with certain things that your peers weren’t. Are you able to share the sorts of things that were tripping you up?

JAIME: Yeah, definitely. So when I was in person, a lot of the you know body doubling that we understand now in ADHD language, which is like foreign to people that are not neurodivergent, I was very successful with other people around me. Even though they weren’t interacting with me, just the having them around me kept me on track and I was super diligent. I got things done. I was always on track of things. But when I was alone I didn’t have that accountability. I didn’t have that sense of people there so my mind would wander. I would do everything but the task that was assigned to me. I would find myself cleaning my dashboards. I would be you know over here like spring cleaning and doing things that like was still on my to-do list but it wasn’t what I needed to get done. And I just struggled to sit down and do what I needed to do. And I was like why am I so distracted? Why am I … and I used to call myself lazy because I was just like something’s wrong with me that I’m just being this lazy. But it’s not that. It’s just that my mind works differently. We needed to readjust but until I got that diagnosis, I honestly had … I felt so bad about myself. I felt like I was a failure and that I … something was innately wrong with me. But it was a … it was a cathartic, relieving moment but at the same time I was a little upset because I was … just like I’ve struggled with this all my life and if I would have known this sooner, I could have trained my brain and trained my habits to work better with the way my mind works.

JULIE: That is a very common reaction too so you’re certainly not alone with that regard. Were there any other concerns about having a label or a diagnosis for you? Did anything else worry you, other than lost time perhaps?

JAIME: I think if I was diagnosed earlier. It’s a two-sided sword because I have 11 going on 12 years of mental health advocacy and we were working with like children with ADHD that I’ve learned that it is not … it’s okay to have that label. We’re all made differently and we’re not made out of the same cookie cutter mould. So what makes us different makes us special and makes us unique and what makes us, us. And it’s beautiful and I didn’t have this mentality let’s say 10 years ago. So I think if I did have an earlier label put on me I think that would have hit my mental health a lot differently than it is. So I do believe things happen for a reason and you know, things when you have to know things.

JULIE: Yeah. Now you’re a career development coach and also you focus on stress management as well. Since your diagnosis has that new understanding helped your coaching?

JAIME: Yes, definitely. So a lot of the techniques that I give out typically work really well with people with ADHD because they work with me, right? And what I thought was unique and thing like … I was like … people who are not neurodivergent they’re like “That’s a very interesting way of putting things,” and it works for them too but what I’ve ended up noticing is that I attracted a lot of people who were also neurodivergent because they’re like “I liked what you said and that worked. And I’ve gotten advice and it never worked and this is the first time that I’ve done something and I actually followed through.” And I was just like oh that’s awesome! So when I actually started paying attention a lot of my clients were, as they call them, ‘neurospicy’.

JULIE: Absolutely and what sort of, or what are the biggest career challenges that your clients are coming to you for help with? What’s coming up as your top three?

JAIME: I would say one is late-stage diagnosis where they’re kind of like me and they get diagnosed at a late age and they’re like “Well, what now? Like, what like … how does this define me? How does this change me? And how am I supposed to move forward with this new label?” And it does put like a little bit of a fork into their processes because they’re going through this identity like adaptation, and a little bit of an identity crisis, and they don’t know if they should continue things as they usually did or if there’s easier ways of getting things done. And if like maybe some of these things that they thought “Maybe I should never pursue that path because I’m just not good at it.” Is it because they were just not going at it the right way because of the way their brain works? So one easy thing like I … one client comes to mind. She was told that she talks too fast and that she talked too much during meetings, and that she would at times interrupt people. And she was always kind of like put down, telling that she would never be in a leadership position because she doesn’t know how to listen. And I told her “It’s not that you don’t know how to listen, it’s that you process 10 times faster than the normal person, so you’re constantly going in. So I was like let’s try some different techniques. Instead of verbalizing it, write them down. Write everything down because the reason you’re trying to say everything so fast is because you feel that you’re going to forget, because your mind goes a lot faster than usual. So if you take notes and you write down your bullet points, you have placeholders for you to go. And if you’re you know, work working virtually you can type up your notes. You can even record the session. I’ll ask for permission. That way you can relisten to it and then really process it better the second time. She’s like “I never thought about that. So I can become a leader.” And I was like you can. You just have to learn how your brain works and be able to organize yourself a lot better so you can be successful. So it’s kind of like things like that where things that you once thought was not possible and you like you shine a little bit of light on them and they’re like “Wow I actually can do this. I just have to change the tactic that I was going into it.”

JULIE: And often for us late diagnosed ADHDers it is all we’ve ever known and so then to think oh gosh, people … other people aren’t like me you know, they don’t think the same way as I do. Yeah, that’s interesting. It’s that change of perception really and how you can still be brilliant but just go about it in a different way that other people can help understand you. Now I’ll sneak in this because I think it’s wonderful, tell me about your laughter yoga.

JAIME: Yeah, so I use that a lot for my stress management coaching. And with that is simple enough, is that we forget as adults, we forget to have fun and to enjoy life. And it gets really easy, especially with things going on either in your workplace, your personal life, around the world, it’s super easy for us to find the joy in things. And when I got introduced to laughter yoga it changed my life. It was just something that really inspired me, allowed me to re-enter play into my life and just laugh. And just have the best way to kind of heal your soul in a sense. And it’s a simple practice that was invented in India in the 1990s and … excuse me, it basically incorporates yogic breathing, usually yoga nidra, with simple laughter exercises to allow your body to laugh naturally without having the need of a joke or forced laughter. And it’s just a natural way to laugh, breathe, get more oxygen into your brain and reduce those stress hormones.

JULIE: Does it also release some dopamine in the process? [Yes, a lot of dopamine.] Yes. Which is great and don’t you know, for those of us who are not medicated for ADHD like myself, those little spikes of dopamine just to help top up levels is brilliant. And that’s something you can practice yourself once you’ve learned the techniques so you don’t necessarily need to be in a group? You can be sitting in the car and happily laugh away?

JAIME: Oh yes. I’ve got into a habit of whenever I’m going into a stressful situation, or if I feel overwhelmed or over stimulated, I’ll walk away. I will go to my car or sometimes I’ll step outside and I was like “We just need a 10-minute break,” and I’ll just laugh. Or if they want to entertain with me, whoever I’m with, I was like “Do you just want to laugh together and let’s just do a couple exercises.” And it could be simple as doing a counting laughter where you just add one laugh each time. Or you start doing like one breathe in, like kind of like the box breathing but instead of releasing regular air you’re releasing laughter. So there’s a lot of different techniques you can do that literally it just takes 30 seconds to reset your brain, get that dopamine rush, and get you in a better mood almost instantly.

JULIE: That’s a wonderful strategy to have available. That’s amazing. Now you also talk about time management and that’s another challenge in the workplace. Can you specifically talk to time management and how … yeah, some tips and tricks that can help us?

JAIME: Yeah, definitely and that’s actually one of the other things that people usually come to me is they feel like they don’t know how to manage their time. And time blindness is something that is really big in the ADHD world. You will say I’m just gonna do this one more task and I’ll be … I’ll go on to whatever I need to do and then that one task went and it was like three hours, four hours and you’re like, where did my time go? What happened here? And I always tell people you have to pretend that you’re blind to time and you do not, you can’t trust your inner clock because it’s a little unreliable, you know. It has the batteries, not as good as the other people that can tell like five minutes from five minutes. Your five minutes can be 30 minutes compared to the average Joe. So you really do have to set timers. You have to be able to set alarms. I always … I say, if it’s not on your calendar it’s not going to happen. And make sure that it you have some type of alert, or ding, or something to remind you to keep on track. And I struggle with this the same way as a lot of my clients, which is basic functions that you need to survive such as eating, taking breaks, going to the restroom. You need to add those into your calendar too because it’s so easy for one to just say “Oh I’m so like … it’s my lunchtime but let me just finish this task.” And then I’ll get to it. And then by the time that you realize it’s the end of the day you still haven’t ate, you’re feeling tired, you’re feeling like lethargic, and you’re like “Why am I so drained?” Well, you didn’t eat all day. You didn’t eat. You didn’t drink water. You didn’t relieve yourself from the stress that you’re having and you’re just accumulating it over time. So keep a very strict schedule. Set reminders and I would say always give yourself a buffer. Don’t just do back-to-back meetings because that’s not realistic for us. If you have a meeting let’s say in the morning, add like a buffer of you know, taking a break doing some admin work, whatever it may be to give yourself that breathing room to process and kind of calm down from whatever just happened before you enter the next one. Because most likely things are going to go late and you have to like plan ahead as much as possible.

JULIE: Great words. Very good words of advice. The other thing too is for those of us, again diagnosed later, often our traits are very exposed in a work environment. And we’re very aware of our over-talking perhaps or interrupting as the example you gave earlier. And it can be through observation, what we’re doing well or what we’re not doing so well, it can lower our self-confidence in the workplace. How does one build their confidence in the workplace? Let’s say there’s an ADHD diagnosis. How do you reset that enthusiasm and trust and self-belief?

JAIME: One thing I do have to say is that ADHD is on a spectrum so not everybody’s going to have the same type of symptoms. So what may be mild for some may be more severe for others. So one, recognize to learn your body and don’t try to associate yourself like if you’re watching on Instagram, or Tik Tok, or videos and you’re like “This person says this is what an ADHD person looks like and acts like. That’s all me. Everything attributes to me.” No, it’s not. Like I said, not a cookie cutter, so get to learn your body first because the first step for confidence is really knowing what skills you have, what … I don’t want to call it a weakness, but what things you don’t do so well, and what, how can you learn to work around those to build up to your strengths. And it’s easy for us to start thinking negatively about ourselves. Like one statistic that always blows my mind is we have about 60,000 thoughts a day and 75% of those are negative. Oh, wow. So you can only imagine, this is based on a neurotypical individual. So knowing that people who are neurodivergent have more thoughts and we are more hypercritical than the average person, imagine the statistic what that would actually impact us. So we have to be … keep that in mind. So we’re 10 times more likely to be hypercritical of ourselves, so we have to be able to give ourselves grace. And instead of letting it happen in here, talk about it. Talk to your peers. “Hey, do you mind just setting a time to have a quick coffee chat just so we can kind of see what are some things you’ve noticed that are good about my performance? What are some things you noticed that I can do better?” And then acknowledge those things and then constantly reassure you based on what other people are telling you, versus what you tell yourself. Talk to your supervisor and then just note down these things and then see how you can improve yourself. Because the thing is that yeah, you may not function like everybody else but there’s certain things that you do that bring the team together that end up like you know, making the process work a lot better. So, and that’s the same with everybody. So like there’s going to be good and there’s going to be bad. There’s … it’s never just all bad.

JULIE: That’s so true and we certainly do bring things to the table. There’s a huge big list of positive things and I hope our listeners are very aware of theirs. But sometimes finding your strengths can be a bit difficult for some but they are certainly there, which is awesome. You also talk about embracing authenticity, your authentic self in the workplace. Do you have any suggestions about how to go about … how to go about that really?

JAIME: Yeah and it really goes with who do you want to show up as every day? Would do you want to show up as someone who you’re not, where you constantly have to put up this front and being … and masking yourself into what you think people want? Or isn’t it just easier if you can just show up as yourself, as just being you. If you want to crack a joke, then crack a joke. If you want to be able to you know, wear certain things and wear the certain things, of course with reason … you can’t depending on your workplace you can’t just show up in whatnot, but in your everyday life do what you want. Dress as you want, whatever hair colour you want, whatever. It also scales up your confidence because you’re trusting yourself enough to just allow yourself to be you and it will increase your happiness. It will increase your sense of self and it goes back to really realizing “Who am I?” And one of the things that people usually think, “I’m going to be this person, this version of myself because I have to be professional and I have to you know, do this in order to get the promotion.” But the problem is that eventually that facade will break. You’re going to have some emotion or some situation that’s going to cause you to break out of character and people are going to feel like they don’t know you because they truly don’t. You were a version of them, of who you thought they should be, and when they get to know the real you, you only cause disappointment because it feels like you lied to them. So to avoid that relationship to occur, that problem, just be yourself and just do you one step at a time. And the right people will get attracted by you.

JULIE: That’s really interesting. And I can see how when starting a new job, walking in as your authentic self, you’ve got a fresh start. If you’ve been in a job or role for a certain period of time and have been masking, as we often do for such a long time, and you talk about something happening out of character when in fact it very much is character but has been disguised. Any recommendations on how to go from … how to unmask really in a work environment when potentially managers, peers, colleagues, have seen you or have seen a different side of you?

JAIME: It’s just communicating and being very frank and saying like “Hey, I just want to talk to you. I feel that I haven’t really been able to be myself. I’ve … entering this place I thought that I had to act this certain way in order to be feel respected but it’s very exhausting. It’s very emotionally like draining and that’s not who I am. So I’m going to let … like these next few days you’re going to start seeing who I truly am and just let me know how you feel and let me know how that is for you. And I just really want to be myself because I feel like I’ve … I haven’t been that person.” And just starting to like, little by little, just lowering those walls and honestly the people around you are not going to take it as badly as you think they are. It’s giving yourself permission is the hardest part because we feel that we’re gonna disappoint people but it’s not about disappointing other people. It’s about making yourself proud.

JULIE: That’s wonderful and you’re an advocate for inclusivity in the workplace too. Can you talk, can you share your experiences and what’s worked and how we can be advocates for our own inclusivity in our workplaces too?

JAIME: Yeah, so a lot of the work that I do revolves around just inclusivity with like LGBTQ+ community, as well as a multi-ethnic community, and really using the privileges that we have … because everybody has a certain level of privilege, some more than others. And using that to help really have the people that don’t have as much privilege have a voice and advocating for them as well. So, for example, me as a male I have a certain privilege that I can help my female counterparts and really advocate for them. So whenever I’m in work meetings and I’m noticing that … like be hypervigilant. Don’t just cruise by. Like be intentive about wanting to make change happen. So if you notice that during a work meeting a lot of my/your female counterparts are not being heard or kind of like their ideas are being shut down, speak up and be like “Actually let’s hear so-and-so’s idea again. I found that very interesting.” I was like “Oh that’s a very good idea,” like you know like “Let’s do that.” Or collaborate with peers that you normally wouldn’t collaborate, and include people in certain activities that you wouldn’t normally include, and creating the change. We’re so used to status quo. But just because something has been like that the long way, like for a long period of time, doesn’t mean that that’s the best way or the more … or the most inclusive and respectful way to do that. And just really incorporating people to feel heard, to feel seen. And also learning about microaggressions, and learning about other people’s cultures so that you can be respectful, not say something inappropriate, And, if you do say something inappropriate, own up to it. Apologize, learn and do better the next time.

JULIE: That’s great. And I guess too we can be advocates for ADHD in our workplace as well. And while it doesn’t necessarily mean anything massive but just as we educate ourselves, so how our brain works, sharing that in conversation with our colleagues too is good. So I think there’s still a bit of stigma around ADHD specifically and anything that we can share that is factual to help educate others I think is really important too. Now you also deal with a lot of people going through burnout which I completely can relate to. What are some warning signs that some of your clients really should look out for that burnout might be imminent?

JAIME: So the sad truth is that a lot of people with ADHD or who are neurospicy are more likely to get burnout because we like to go full in in whatever we do. So it’s not just like in our careers but even in our personal lives. And I always make this joke with people with ADHD and I tell them “Where in your house do you keep all of your failed projects, or all of like the projects that are half done that you haven’t finished yet?” And then people just kind of look around and they’re like “Yeah, over there, for everything,” because we tend to go full in. There’s no like half starting something or just giving it a test trial. No. Perfect example, I’ll put myself on as an example. I said I was going to go scuba diving and I was going to take one class but, instead of just taking that one class and renting the stuff, I went to go buy all the gear. I like purchase a package. I did like all of these like private lessons and … am I doing it now? No. Like it’s like all it’s over there and then like I switched to fishing and I bought all of the tackle, all the bait, all of the stuff, all the stuff to de-gut the fish. Have I actually fished? No. And we like go full in and the thing is that we need to take a step back and take a breather. Yeah, and like and this can count for work too because the thing is that we’ll get obsessed over a project. Or we’ll get obsessed over a certain policy, or procedure, or something that we find interesting in the time and remind yourself take it easy. Don’t go too quickly, too fast because you’re going to obsess over it, get over stressed, not put the right type of pacing and you’re going to basically burn out. And the problem is that with leaders, if they see that you’re doing really good at something really quickly, they’re going to want to you to do more of it. And they will fall into the trap of giving you more. And now you’re like “Why do I have all these responsibilities that I didn’t have before?” But it’s because you didn’t set the proper boundaries and you didn’t communicate that, and also you went too fast, too quickly. So that was a long-winded answer to get to the answer. In order for you to be able to like see the red flags as #1, if you’re feeling like you’re going too fast and you’re getting a lot done and you’re just like avoiding other things, that’s one red flag. #2, is there any boundaries that are set for me to not get burnt out? So do you have a set clock out time? Do you have a set time that you’re going to be going in? Have you … do you have some type of work/life balance? What are you doing to decompress after work? Because what burnout is, is just an abundance of stress that is unregulated. And it’s just like festering inside our bodies, just growing and growing every day until the point where it caps out and we just lose all empathy. We lose all sense of joy. We lose our motivation and we’re just an empty shell. And the unfortunate part is that burnout can take anywhere from 3 to 5 years to recover. So once you get to that point it’s going to take a long time to recover through that journey and it’s not always an easy one. So if you’re feeling that stress, that sense of you know … and your body gives you signs too. Like you’ll get headaches. You’ll get irregular bowel movements. You’ll notice tension in your shoulders and different parts of your body. You’ll start feeling sluggish, not wanting to wake up. You know like sleep, not being able to fall asleep. Lack of … lack of appetite or overindulgence of food. All of these are like big indicators that you’re going … you’re either experiencing burnout or you’re well on your way to get burnt out.

JULIE: Wow. Wow. And then the flip side of that I guess is thriving with ADHD in the workplace. Do … how do you encourage your clients to thrive, not just survive?

JAIME: So one is like, like I said, getting to know your body really well. What are you really good at, and like really getting to know where you thrive in the organization. And talking to your management, and talking to your leaders, and even getting positions that you know you have a passion for and you’re going to be good at. One thing that people with ADHD are thrivers, is thrive in chaos situations. So if you’re doing program management, or problem management like management, we tend to be the most calm, cool, collected because we process things so quickly that you’re like “Oh this is nothing,” you know, and we thrive in chaos. So maybe something like that would be really good for problem solving. So if there’s a certain situation where you need to find the bottlenecks of a certain organization that’s something that’s going to go really well for you. If there’s certain tasks where you feel that you just gained a lot of knowledge because you hyperfixated on it and now you just like are really, really good on that then by all means be the expert in that. Be a consultant. Be something that play with your strengths. And finding out exactly what is it that you’re good at and then focusing on that, and then going in deeper. But of course, not everything that you’re good at you’re going to enjoy. So knowing the difference between the two just because you’re good at something doesn’t mean that you have to always do that as well.

JULIE: It’s all about balance. Something that we’re not … yeah, not particularly good at, but to strive for. And of course there’ll be those that are really struggling to find a career path. Do you have clients that are a bit stuck as to which direction they’re going? Can you talk or share a little bit about that?

JAIME: Yeah, definitely. And I think this is very common for people who get diagnosed at a later time because the things that they wanted to do as a child they felt they were given one excuse or another that they couldn’t because of the certain barriers that they could reach. So maybe it was a way of functioning or like I said, my client that said that she was too loud you know, that she couldn’t be a leader because of that. So really revisiting that. Like is the reason that I’m not going into something because I gave myself that limitation because of my diagnosis? Or lack of diagnosis? And really revisiting what is the … what has brought me passion? And it doesn’t always have to be lucrative. Like just … I say always just pretend in the world if you can get paid like all money that you needed to do what you love to do, what would it be? And take those little things and search. Is there a job that does do something like this that can I can make like a living out of? And if not, is there a business I can start that’s revolved around that passion and then create the job that I want? So there’s a lot of different ways to do it but it does really go down to first really get to know yourself. Relearn what brings joy, what maybe in the past, what brought you joy? Or what is it that you wanted to do as a child? And then really revisit those topics and then go from there. But you just have to be curious and be open-minded.

JULIE: And I think we’re very good at that naturally. Naturally we are. That’s exciting. Now I notice … our listeners won’t be able to see this but you’ve got a beautiful … what would I call it? Art? Art display on your wall, on your office wall: note to self. Could you read us out some of those wonderful words of wisdom?

JAIME: Yeah, of course. So it’s note to self. Your feelings are valid. Your boundaries are important. You are doing the best you can. It’s okay to ask for help. You are worthy and lovable. You’re allowed to say no. You’re capable of amazing things. And, it’s okay to start over and try again.

JULIE: Ah. Ah. Great, great words there. Well, you must have a very interesting role and different types of characters and situations that clients find themselves in, coming to you for assistance. Would you be able to share what you love most about your work?

JAIME: I think what I love the most about my work is it’s never the same thing twice. So even though there’s some little commonalities in the struggles that people have, they each come with a unique perspective and unique thing. And like I said, do what you love and find out what you can what you’re good at. I’m really good at problem solving so that’s why I dived into this career because for me, each person comes to me with the problem and then we work together to help come up with the solution to that problem and that sense of joy and relief that they get when they find out that they’re not alone in this. And there’s others that have struggled with this and I would say how helping people learn that the goal that they once thought was impossible is possible, something you can never take away. It’s something that like I say, you get a second paycheck of the heart because you’re able to help someone live a more fruitful life.

JULIE: Absolutely. Now you … the name of your business is Rainbow Coaching … [Rainbow Career Coaching.] Career Coaching, brilliant. Now all of your details will be in the show notes of this episode. So if anyone listening who’d like to get in touch with you, your website details and your social handles and all of it will be down there for people to refer to. So Jamie, it’s been wonderful chatting with you. Thank you so much and I really appreciate you sharing your journey and your experience with us.

JAIME: Of course. Thank you for having me and I appreciate what you’re doing. What you’re doing is amazing and I’m glad that you set up a platform to really address this.

JULIE: Thank you.